Friday, August 25, 2006

Christian Carter - Friend or Foe?

I am somewhat fascinated by the (and I hyperbolize when I use this term) phenomena that is Christian Carter. For those unfamiliar, Christian Carter is the equivalent of a PUA guru for women, except that he focuses on what he assumes most women want: catching him and keeping him. The ebook and newsletters have a relationship bent and are very soft-focus and empathetic in their approach to coaxing a woman to behave in a way that will get her a man of her own to love.

I read the ebook when I was single and still skim the newsletters from time to time today-- the key word here is "skim" because Carter has a frustrating way of taking 1,000 words to say something that can be said in two sentences. I have found a few useful nuggets of wisdom, but most of it can be boiled down to:

* Don't sleep with him too soon!
* Be self aware!

And, everybody's perennial favorite:

Now what distinguishes Carter and the self-helpers, who coach you on if he's not into you or you're not into him, is that there are rumors that Christian Carter is an alter ego for David DeAngelo, creator of Double Your Dating and one of the biggest pickup gurus out there. In fact, Catch Him Inc., Carter's company name, is allegedly owned by Double Your Dating.

I know there was a big discussion over on Thundercat's blog a year or two ago about the ethics of having possibly the same man preach conflicting advice to men and women. I mean, a man's goal is to get the woman in bed as quickly as possible and the woman's goal is to resist his advances as long as possible, in order to develop an intimacy and emotional connection.

One one hand, if someone is a relationship expert, there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to advise males and females, right? I don't see a problem with that. Yet when the advice to males is to get over her "anti-slut defenses" as quickly as possible, whereas a woman is advised to wait at least a month if she wants to develop a relationship, that seems a bit contradictory, doesn't it?

Of course, whether or not David DeAngelo and Christian Carter are the same person or even under the same umbrella company is speculation, even though...

They have IDENTICAL long-winded writing styles.

Full of SHORT paragraphs.

That go ON and ON. And take forever.

To actually get to the POINT.

As frustrated as I get with Carter's way of communicating, there is some useful advice to be found about being poised and secure and living in the reality of a situation instead of the unrealized ideal. However, I have read newsletters that take some digs at pickup artists and preach some of the same exact advice that PUAs in training get: don't buy gifts, don't be too nice, create lively banter and a fun, challenging atmosphere. Boy, with everyone being told not to be too nice, I sure hope all the single people out there don't follow the advice too closely and become assholes!

Personally, my best advice is if you're going to read the ebooks and newsletters, read the ones aimed at both men and women, to get a rounded view, so that you know what the opposite sex is being told to do as well. Take everything with a grain of salt then get out of the house and stop focusing on your single status. These newsletters are so focused on talking to people and building rapport and flirting, but none of them focus nearly enough on what might be the most important thing of all: HAVING A LIFE. You know, getting out of the house and developing skills and interests that aren't necessarily centered around getting laid or finding a relationship.

I realize a lot of people out there need guidance when it comes to dating and courtship. But nothing is better than disregarding all the advice (including mine, if you absolutely must) and following your own path. Even if it means being nice.

Just don't forget to be confident!


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Downtown said...

"Don't sleep with him too soon"

I don't think I believe that. What does it matter if you sleep with him early on or not? I've been in both positions (pun-unintended), and I've encountered relationship success and failure regardless if we were having sex or not.

I think the best reason to wait is so can figure out his quirky personality traits and make suer he isn't a mass murderer of sorts.

Constant Dater said...

Isn't it terrible that the man-advice and woman-advice is designed to keep single heterosexuals at cross purposes with one another? Of course if they started preaching a third way, and eveyone got sane and happy, they'd advise themselves out of business.

Anonymous said...

Dolly, your suggestion is good but it kind of misses the point. Sure, there are people who need to improve on more things besides getting laid or securing relationships. But many guys who start learning PU already HAVE hobbies, interests, and a social life. They're not looking for life guidance, they're looking to get laid.

Before I started learning PU I was actually reading more and learning different skills, travelling alot, making new friends, etc. because not having women in my life allowed me the free time to pursue these things. The last thing I would have wanted at that time was someone to tell me "hey, go out and pursue MORE interesting hobbies and skills! Become a MORE interesting person!" If I had merely done that, I would probably have been a virgin for the rest of my life.

Shay said...

I'm sure I have read somewhere that the long winded communication styles of these types of people is a form of mild hyponosis - but I think I'm immune!
I just end up day-dreaming when people take too long to tell me something ^_~

coasta said...

>Yet when the advice to males is to get over her "anti-slut defenses" as quickly as possible, whereas a woman is advised to wait at least a month if she wants to develop a relationship, that seems a bit contradictory, doesn't it?

That's why it's called "The Game". lol

>I realize a lot of people out there need guidance when it comes to dating and courtship. But nothing is better than disregarding all the advice .... Even if it means being nice.

The problem with this is that it is ok advice for most girls and only SOME guys. It's not just about "dating and courtship" for what is probably a majority of American guys. It's about a fundamental change in who they are and how they relate to the world. Much has been written about the pussification of the american male (for lack of better terminology), and I really believe guys today have to get over a whole lot more stuff than girls do when it comes to relationships and whatnot.

It's almost like guys are starting much farther back than girls, and if you tell them to follow their own path, many times they'll never get anywhere...

Don't know if that was clear. I realize I'm generalizing, but when you are talking about society as a whole, that is the nature of the beast.

Anonymous said...

Christian Carter exists, but I think he's an employee (a beard, really) for Eben Pagan (David DeAngelo.) He's a tall, good-looking, well-spoken guy and (utter speculation here) I am willing to bet he moved to LA to be an actor before aligning with the DeAngelo camp. I agree that the Christian Carter literature is largely written by Pagan, though Carter does the interviews and is the on-camera face.

I'm not sure that Pagan is being duplicitous, though, despite the seemingly-incompatible advice. I think that both strategies are aimed to attract NON-COMMUNITY members of the opposite sex. A lot of the DYD stuff would fall flat on Dolly (though she might still be intrigued by a particularly good execution.) And the Christian Carter stuff would get a woman NEXTed immediately by a guy who's read The Game...but that's still a tiny percentage of males.

Pagan is nothing if not a smart businessman. His best idea, of course, was realizing that if Ross Jeffries were as organized and professional as Anthony Robbins, Jeffries would be richer than God. So Pagan created David DeAngelo as Jeffries 2.0 (which Jeffries will never forgive him for, as RJ could have done it himself so easily.)

But this is a pretty smart move, too -- cribbing from The Rules, etc, creating ebooks & seminars, and a monthly cash-cow interview series.
The smartest part of it is that Pagan has now gained the first-mover advantage for the female side of this market. It will now be much harder for a woman to do to Pagan what Pagan did to Jeffries.

Anonymous said...

As the previous anonymous said Eben's company does do the Christian Carter stuff. And Christian is technically a real person just like David DeAngelo is technically a real person.

But Christian isn't the content creator. Eben's company has approximately 50 employees and is pulling in over $1 million/month. He's a genius marketer.

I met Eben 2 years ago before I knew he was "David." He was a very shy guy (didn't look me in the eyes, looked down) and barely said a word. Funny that he's teaching guys how to be confident. Either way, more power to them all.

Anonymous said...

Question. Do any of the PUAs you work with actually want a healthy, long term relationships out of this "Game". Or are they all looking for quantity over quality? Just curious. I won't go over all the ways in which I disagree with your defense of these "strategies" because everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. I think its manipulative, you don't. We agree to disagree. I would just like some hope that the rift between the sexes in terms of what they want in relationships isn't becoming increasingly wider.

Anonymous said...

Reply from an aspiring PUA:

"Question. Do any of the PUAs you work with actually want a healthy, long term relationships out of this "Game"."

YES! I do. Getting women to be attracted to me is just about the only thing in my life I've always been really bad at. I'm good looking, intelligent, educated, funny, I have a wide range of hobbies that also appeal to women, I have a well paid job, I'm outgoing and have lots of friends, I'm a good conversationalist, a real gentleman, and I'm even pretty good in bed. On top I'm also rather wealthy (although I have NEVER bragged about that to any women to get her to like me). And just about any women I have ever dated said the same thing: "It was SO nice meeting you, I really enjoyed talking with you, you are the perfect boyfriend. I'm sorry THE CHEMISTRY just isn't there, but I'm sure there is SOMEONE ELSE out there for you."

After studying this PUA stuff, not so few women now think that the chemistry is there, and some of them even want to have sex with me. When it comes to the initial attraction, forget about having each and every one of the 'nice guy' qualities, including a life. If you have no game or no "strategies" you cannot attract a woman who has other options. My plan now is to date women and have fun, and when one of them turns out to be that special girl, I'll settle down in a monogamous long-term relationship and be the best boyfriend/husband I can possibly be. And I certainly intend to keep on using the "strategies" on occasion, because that is what adds the spice and excitement - also in a relationship.

Charlie Brown said...

Dolly, you should read my last post. It clearly relates to this subject and what you were saying. When you find a quality girl, you can wait for sex, you can be kind, you can forget all that crap about games. It’s not because the PU gurus tell you not to pay anything to a woman that you have to follow this advice religiously for the rest of your life. When you understand that you can be extra nice as long you’re not supplicating for something (almost all « nice guys » are calculating bastards supplicating for sex), you can bring back all the romantic stuff if the girl has enough class to deserve it.

The girls reading and applying Christian’s stuff will eventually understand that they don’t need to put out sex if they are flirty, confident, energic and interesting enough to keep a man’s attention. Their goal is to become great quality girls and to be cool enough so they don’t get nexted by an alpha guy. This is PU for women. If they were to have sex at first with all guys they pick up, they would be branded as sluts real fast and they would have a hard time telling if the guy is interested in her or just her body. These techniques lose all purpose when used on an AFC, because the AFC don’t have other options and will accept to wait for sex because he’s too much of a loser. It’s not a good indication of being a quality girl. But what girl would go after an AFC anyway?

Anonymous said...

Google “Instant Ewww” and you’ll get links to nearly identical stories by David DeAngelo and Christian Carter. DD/CC’s advice seems contradictory because men and women have different goals. In any case, they offer suggestions, not law, so I don’t sweat the ethics of it.

Girls have centuries of oral tradition plus a huge body of advice in print on everything from one-night stands to catch him/keep him. Boys get a few minutes with Dad on how to handle women. It usually comes on the way to a barbershop, and it usually makes things worse. PUAs are closing the knowledge gap rapidly. Regardless of gender, you learn what you can, then adopt what that feels natural and, yes, ethical. Anyone who claims for their side any special virtue in how they use what they know should not be taken seriously. We all have goals.

It doesn’t matter whether you get played by a woman with “rules” or a by PUA. You feel dirty afterwards, and life is too short for that.


Anonymous said...

Both domains bear striking similarities. They are both registered on the internet by Well, hell, that's not too telling. Everybody and his brother is registered with godaddy these days. Even google and gmail use godaddy as registrar.

But isn't it telling how similar the two sites are? Beyond the words, the design is nearly identical, with only the colors differentiating the two.

But, the most similar thing between the two sites are the technical contacts:

Technical Contact:
DeAngelo, David
David DeAngelo Services
3960 Howard Hughes Pkwy
5th Floor
Las Vegas, Nevada 89109
United States

and the other site:

Technical Contact:
Carter, Christian
Catch Him Inc.
3960 Howard Hughes Pkwy
5th Floor
Las Vegas, Nevada 89109
United States

Wow!!! These two guys are room-mates! Don't believe me? Do a simple "whois" command on the internet.

Anonymous said...

and forgot to mention, the technical contacts for all sites share the same e-mail address:

Of course, do a whois on that domain, and you get, get the idea by now:

Technical Contact:
DeAngelo, David
David DeAngelo Services
3960 Howard Hughes Pkwy
5th Floor
Las Vegas, Nevada 89109
United States

death veggie!

FreedomOfSpeech said...

I went to a DYD Seminar at the beginning of 2005, and Christian Carter bears a striking resemblance to one of David Ds assistants I met when I was there - I think his name was Chance. Ain't many guys who look like that.

Ryan said...

I would argue that DYD and Catch him and keep him can be used together. I've studied David's and PUA stuff for 2 years and read Catch him and keep him (just to see what these girls are up to ;) and I would love to meet girls who follow his advice.

In fact, while I read through some of CC's newsletter, I screamed to myself "if only my ex thought this way then we might still be together!!"

Also, there is a difference between David's stuff and PUA Seduction stuff. PUA is much more technique centered and short-term oriented (how to perfect your skills for this or that encounter to get the girl). DYD stuff is much more long-term, inner game based. How to transform yourself into someone who has high standards, trustworthy, and a bit mysterious and unpredictable.

Christian Carter said somewhere he is an associate of David's and that David helps him out. Also, the style of writing you are referring to is called Sales Copy. It's a way of writing that creates credibility with a reader and is easy on the eyes, often with the intent of making a sale.

I would also argue to read advice books that are specific for one sex, not for both. Since each gender has different areas they need to improve and often completely different ways of seeing the world, so a book tailored for them will be more productive for them.

You brought up alot of good points, nice post!!

Anonymous said...

I've met the man who uses the name Christian Carter, and yes, his name is Chance, and he did once work for EP, then started his own co. on his own using the model he learned from EP. Then EP asked to join forces with him. He does work very hard and writes his own content and didn't come to LA to be an actor. And he is becoming very wealthy as we speak. As for the info he provides. basically it is sound and good, IMO, yet I find the sales pitch manipulative and wouldn't ever buy any of his products. His target customers/audience are insecure women. And all the power to them!

David_Lasers said...

"So Pagan created David DeAngelo as Jeffries 2.0 (which Jeffries will never forgive him for, as RJ could have done it himself so easily.)"

not at all.

DeAngelo's stuff is entirely different and actually adresses REAL issues guys have. (read=insecure, submissive, unsure of themselves, supplicating, boring...THAT's why they don't get girls)He teaches guys how to be more attractive, teaches them right attitude and behaviors, instead of focusing on BS like Jeffries' linguistic patterns based on nlp to hypnotically seduce a woman. Jeffries still appears to be a weird geek that needs crutches to get girls. Who wants to be that. Who doesn't want to be a Man instead?

Angelina said...

I love Christian's advice, and I've started my own blog. Your blog is gorgeous Dolly.

SamTastic said...

I was at the filming of the second release of the Advanced Dating Techniques course. David and Christian shared the same stage at that time, and Christian gave an interview about how he teaches women to find Mr. Right. You can watch the interview on the ADT course. I'd be much more interested to hear your opinion of Dr. Paul, who admits to being the same person and to running two separate sites which are targeted at each gender. He has products on masculinity, but he also markets relationship material to women on a separate site, but does not try to hide this fact.

Amber said...

I read something on David D'Angelo's site that was written for men . . .

. . . and received the exact same article in an email from Christian Carter, except for the 'HEs' and 'SHEs' were switched, of course.

I pasted some of the gender-switched email here. What's up with that?

THE CHRISTIAN CARTER EMAIL (some of it-it's really long):
"It's a story that you might find strangely

Don't be alarmed.

Once, there was a woman who was very attracted
to a particular man.

At first, he was just another good-looking
guy... but the more she got to know him, the more
she began to feel drawn to him... and the more
time she spent with him, the more that attraction
grew into a deep emotional attachment and affection
for him.

But there was one problem-

As her emotional attachment grew stronger and
stronger, she also grew more and more insecure.


Because she couldn't tell whether or not he
felt the same way towards her.

Sometimes he would talk to her and say things
that led her to believe that they shared a special
connection, but nothing ever progressed past the
"friendship" stage.

There was an occasional glance, an occasional
email or call from him... and a few times, he even
opened up about something personal or emotional,
and maybe even shared a secret or two with her.

But something was wrong with the picture.

He just wasn't acting like a man who was
"falling in love". He was acting like a friend,
but at times, even more distant than a friend
would be.

Amy said...

"As for the info he provides. basically it is sound and good, IMO, yet I find the sales pitch manipulative and wouldn't ever buy any of his products. His target customers/audience are insecure women. And all the power to them!"

Despite my initial skepticism with the writing style that Christian uses to sell his products, I don't find it any more manipulative than any other type of sales pitch out there. As a saleswoman myself, I understand that a lot of my job is about opening someone up enough to see that their might be a good reason to consider my product- not manipulate them into buying it at all cost. Both parties have to benefit.

As for the target audience being insecure women- can we change that to 'women who are feeling insecure'? Women who are feeling insecure haven't always been insecure and won't always be insecure. Yes, they're feeling challenged, their self-confidence has temporarily decreased, and they're feeling they need help. But since when has it been wrong to ask for help or to try to help yourself? It's a healthy part of continuous learning in my mind. Recognizing you have a challenge is the first step to meeting it constructively. It doesn't condemn you to being stuck there forever.

Christian Carter's material is very helpful in the sense that he is providing a means for women to shift their perspective on relationships. He encourages maturity, accountability, persistence and working with your personal truth. The fact that he is so specific actually works to your advantage because as you feel supported and encouraged, your confidence increases. As your confidence increases you get better results, and when you get good results from your own honest efforts you can take some pride in yourself- which creates a feeling of security and capability. It's a positive feedback loop. He doesn't have all the answers, but he can certainly help point someone in the direction they would like to go.

Finally, I have heard DD speak and what I perceived is that he is helping men in the same way CC is helping women. It's not about someone seducing and pulling the wool over the other's eyes. It's about making an authentic connection and maintaining to the benefit and happiness of both parties. So, if CC and DD are linked in business and are making a lot of money by encouraging people to be authentic in their relationships- so be it! They probably deserve it!

Assya said...

this post has made much more sense than all those 100pages newsletters of c.carter that go on and on.. aaggh
thanks for reminding me of being confident! it's all about that!

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