Thursday, February 08, 2007

Would you date...yourself?

Telecom Tom and I did not get into a heavy correspondence before meeting. A few lightly flirtatious emails, and Tom asked if I want to meet for a drink. Which is great, because I'm not crazy about doing the penpal thing only to meet up and discover there's no chemistry.

Tom lives a few subway stops away from me, and suggested meeting in my neighborhood. Considering the arctic temperatures, I chose a bar a block away from my apartment.

I had the perfect attitude going into this date: I had no expectations, but felt like my best, most outgoing self, and was ready to enjoy a drink or two with a new person. Since I didn't know much about Tom and didn't have a lot pinned on the situation, I was determined not to let the date drag out longer than necessary if we didn't have any connection.

Tom ran into some subway problems, but called to let me know (he ended up only being ten minutes late, but I put a lot of stock into small, thoughtful gestures like that). I got to the bar just after he did and was pleased to see he looked like his photos. Medium build, dark hair and eyes, a few inches taller than me (though I was in heels last night, so we were the same height), reasonably attractive.

The music playing in the bar was by one of my favorite bands, which I saw as a good sign and instantly put me in a good mood. I told him as much. We got a round of drinks (he paid), and launched into a pretty effortless conversation.

What I like about Telecom Tom is that he seems a pretty well-adjusted and happy guy, but hinted at a few unusual and less pleasant aspects of his life to balance out the cheer, so he wasn't all fluff and insufferable cheeriness. Our conversation stayed pretty light, but there were a few moments where it got a bit serious, and I got a sense that this is somebody I could maybe open up to once I got to know him better.

We discussed our careers and when I mentioned my passion for writing and interest in the ways the internet is changing communication, he suggested that I start a podcast. Oh boy. At least he didn't suggest that I start a blog, right? Tom himself is doing some very creative things with telecommunications and I was fascinated to hear some of the ideas he's developing.

As for sparkage, I'm not sure. We sat at the bar, not very close to each other, so there was a limited amount of physical contact we could have. However, we did mimic each other's body language quite a bit, and at one point Tom moved his chair so that he was sitting closer to me. We would also occasionally put our elbows on the bar and lean into each other a bit (the bar got pretty loud, so part of it might have been to hear each other better). Seemed like there was a bit of interest on his part, but hard to tell where it would go.

Tom and I have a fair amount in common: we both went to college in the same state, both lived abroad in the same country, both come from very quirky families.

We stayed for two hours and two drinks. As we were putting our coats on, I said,

"This was fun."

"Yes. I feel like you're a female version of me."

"Wow!" I smiled, not sure how to react.

I'm still not sure. What does that mean? That he thinks we're so similar we're better off pursuing a friendship? Or that we're so much alike it could be the beginning of something more? I don't think anybody has ever said that to me before. I guess I would need to have a better sense of what Tom thinks of himself.

It made me wonder whether I would date a male version of myself. On one hand, I know I'd be a fabulous kisser and have terrific music and movie taste. On the other hand, I can be a bit tightly wound and am not that great when it comes to managing stress, and I don't know if my male counterpart would be able to diffuse that. Oh, and let's not even get into my impatience and moodiness. I don't know, dating a male me could be spectacularly passionate and perfect, or disastrous, or maybe even dull.

In other words, I still have no idea what Tom meant by that comment (seriously, outside opinions are welcome). My first thought was: friends.

We got on the topic of karaoke, which he enjoys. As we left the bar, I mentioned that my friends and I are doing karaoke this weekend, that he is welcome to drop by if he wants (I thought this was a good way of showing him I'd be interested in seeing him again, but am happy to keep it casual for the time being).

He took a moment to consider it.

"I want to do karaoke with you, but I'd rather do karaoke one on one."

"Yeah, I'd be up for that," I replied

"It would have to be... next week."

"Sure. This week is pretty crazy as it is."

We nodded, smiled, said good-bye with a quick kiss on the lips. Too brief to tell its potential.

I think it went pretty well. It's going to take at least another date or two to see if there's something there, but I'd be interested in going out with Tom again. It was actually a pretty ideal way to get back into dating: a pleasant couple of hours spent with an interesting guy, resulting in the possibility of a second date. At the same time, the evening didn't leave me so swoony that I feel like I'll die if he doesn't call. I wonder if he will...

46 comments:

Anonymous said...

You're the female version of me = I like you and I should express that by saying something witty right now but I'm drawing a blank.


Silver

Ana Renee Jones said...

Hahahahah...Silver, that a good translation.

Dolly,

I don't know if it's me or what but the more I read your blog the more I feel like we have a lot in common too. (this isn't a pick-up line).

I love the possibilities the internet has for communication and I am interested in new advances in this area too.

Like I said, "You're the east coast version of me". Which means I like you and I want to express that by saying something witty right now but I am drawing a blank. Ha...that was fun.

I am working on improving myself so that I will be the kind of person I want to date me. And right now the self improvement is coming along smoothly...everything is starting to click.

Best of luck, love, and liberty;
Ana

Damsel Underdressed said...

It is hard to say. You have just described so many of my online dates. I mean down to the fact that maybe the earth didn't move under your feet but that you would be up for a second date. For me, that kind of date always ended up fifty fifty...as far as getting together again. Sorry I can't be of much help but I will be curious to know what happens.

Lady Latte said...

"You're the female version of me," could mean lots of things but it sounds sort of weird when you've only just met. All the same.

On dating yourself: one of my Exes is the male version of me. We were friends for a year first, then were a couple for a year, but eventually it didn't work out. Pretty much because we were too much alike - we were both insecure about the same things, both annoyed by the same habits we both shared, and eventually the whole thing just fell apart. Ideally I want someone a lot like me but not so much that we drive each other nuts.

Good luck with karaoke next week! Sounds fun.

Anonymous said...

Hey Dolly,

Why don't you just ask the guy how he feels about you? Sounds to me like there might be some sparks.

But then again...as Billy Joel sings "Honesty is such a lonely word"

-the Saint

Anonymous said...

Isnt online dating always about finding someone similar to you? They match you up based on interest, hobbies etc....

I think the site you are on just did a good job. and ditto to what silver said. G'luck!

-LouseLogic

Auntie Mom said...

See, I don't see that as good. The one time I thought about a date like that, I was creeped out. I didn't think of him romantically at all. After all, if you're the kind of girl who wants to be thrown down on the bed, you don't want to be dating someone who also wants to be the throwee!

Which isn't to say that's the case with you, but I'm just sayin'. Can't wait to read about tonight!

~k

Halstead said...

Internet dating? I've never done it myself. But it seems like you got a "good date" out of it. On the other hand, it was kind of a boring date, right? It seems to me that you didn't like him that much. (No kiss?) The biggest thing you took away was the "Your the Female Me" thing? Which, if he really meant it, and you really believed it, should have you running for the hills.

Dolly said...

Silver,
Hahaha, I like that.

Ana,
You and I are unique, like snowflakes (even moreso, because scientists have actually discovered there are snowflakes that are identical to each other).

Damsel,
That ambivalence is a killer, no?

Lady Latte,
Yeah, it was odd considering we only chatted for a couple of hours. It was nice to hear, but if it was in a platonic context, maybe less nice.

Saint,
If there's a second date, I may just do that.

Louse,
It's nice to overlap on some things, but better to be complimentary on others. Such as...

Auntie,
You bring up a great point. That would be one big problem about being "the same". I think it would be difficult for me to date someone sexually submissive. Not impossible, but difficult. But I wasn't creeped out by the comment, just puzzled.

Halstead said...

*ouch*

Dolly said...

Halstead,
Ouch?

Anonymous said...

You're the female version of me = I like you and, refreshingly, I haven't yet discovered the PUA community so I have no idea what a disastrous thing this is to say.

He sounds like a cool guy. Probably cooler than Realtor Rick was pre-community. Yeah, if Tom had read 'Double Your Dating' he'd have come off better/more attractive, but even in his off-the-rack AFC state, he warrants more investigation.

I think when a non-community guy does this well, grade on a curve. What he needs to know he could learn in an afternoon.

Aphexcoil said...

Dolly,

He likes you, but he's hesitant to act on those feelings. It sounds like he just got out of a tough long-term relationship recently. The fact that he said that you remind him of a female version of himself is good -- it means he finds commonality and feels comfortable to open up to you.

He will call you back most definitely.

He likes you. He also likes your blog. Muhahahaha!!! JK on that one (although that would be hysterical if he stumbled upon it).

aphie

Aphexcoil said...

Anon,

You're the female version of me = I like you and, refreshingly, I haven't yet discovered the PUA community so I have no idea what a disastrous thing this is to say.

Don't start with that PUA bullshit. The best part of PUAology can be summed up in a few paragraphs -- but most guys will miss the entire point completely.

You see, dating and getting a girl to "like" you isn't based off some complicated equation (well, maybe, but it is much larger than any even Einstein could handle).

Actually, just read Dolly's blog. She doesn't know how to take that statement at all. I guess you could classify his comment as some type of "NLP Neg." How would a woman take that? "Is that a compliment? An insult? What does he mean?" If anything, it is only going to heighten her interest for more discovery at a later point in time (aka another date).

The principles of PUA are nice -- good eye contact, don't talk like a waterfall of babble, display an air of confidence and warmth, etc. The bad part of PUA? You can't just remember a bunch of hashed up one-liners and expect to get anywhere.

The whole point of being a desirable person isn't in knowing how to play the part verbatim, it is living it while injecting your own style and mystique. There's a big difference.

Women love mystery, confidence and warmth. If you can project that and add some gentle touching while talking to her (and I mean REALLY trying to understand her interests and ideas -- not shit like, "So what's your major?"), you'll get the attention of at least 1/3'rd of the women you go on a date with -- and that's a high percentage when you're dealing with "female logic."

V said...

Some commonality is good but I personally go for someone almost polar opposite of myself. For me dating is all about experiencing new things, new people, and new places.

Then again, I have my hands mixed into everything you can think, so what the hell do I know?

Anonymous said...

Um, aphex, stop congratulating yourself and start reading more carefully. I MEANT it when I said it was good he was not a PUA.

Mike said...

The main reason I read this blog is for the insight into the female psyche. The more I read it, the more it confirms the things I've learned from studying PUA material.

Medium build, dark hair and eyes, a few inches taller than me (though I was in heels last night, so we were the same height), reasonably attractive

As for sparkage, I'm not sure.

One of the concepts from PUA is that attraction for women is not primarily based on physical appearance. These excerpts seem to support this notion. He is reasonably attractive, yet there may not be "sparks". For years I was unaware of this phenonemon, and couldn't figure out why as a guy who is 6'3" with a bodybuilding physique and at least a decent face, I kept getting stuck in the "nice guy friend zone". Physical appearance is such a miniscule portion of attraction for women compared to men.

"Yes. I feel like you're a female version of me."

"Wow!" I smiled, not sure how to react.

I'm still not sure. What does that mean? That he thinks we're so similar we're better off pursuing a friendship? Or that we're so much alike it could be the beginning of something more? I don't think anybody has ever said that to me before.


One of the things that David D continually drives home in his newsletters, is that women are always asking "what does this mean". Nothing is taken at literal face value. There is always a search for some other subtext or deeper hidden meaning.

Dolly, as a guy, I can pretty much guarantee you this statement means nothing more then he found your personality similar to his, and that you have stuff in common. The statment has NO implication whatsoever as to whether he thinks a friendship or romantic relationship is preferable. I have to admit I almost find it bizarre that you would interpret it that way. I guess the female and male minds truly do work in radically different ways.

Mike said...

LOL,

Reading through the other replies, I am flabbergasted by the amount of commentary and analysis that is going into the statement about "being a female version of me" especially from the female posters.

As I mentioned in my previous post, there is no deeper hidden meaning here other then he found your personality similar to his.

See, I don't see that as good. The one time I thought about a date like that, I was creeped out. I didn't think of him romantically at all.

Unbelievable on how an innocent comment simply meant to express similar personalities can kill attraction. This is why I think all guys should study PUA and the seduction community. It is so easy to say or do the wrong thing, and have absolutely no idea what you did wrong to mess it up.

Anonymous said...

I am flabbergasted by the amount of commentary and analysis that is going into the statement about "being a female version of me" especially from the female posters.

Women are never on the bottom meta level and thus don't believe others are capable of it. They generate bizarre subtext where there is none because they wholly discount text...to the degree that they don't even realize they're doing it! And so a guy who's fooled by a feeling of rapport into saying what pops into his head is fucked. Dolly will overthink it and run it past the peanut gallery until she hates him.

The best he can hope for is that the endless parsing of his throwaway comment results in the determination that it was merely banal -- in which case he's still fucked.

If Tom knew that what was for him the least important sentence of the evening was, to Dolly, the headline -- he'd be floored.

It is so easy to say or do the wrong thing, and have absolutely no idea what you did wrong to mess it up.

Fuckin' A. And I want the last twenty years of my life back.

It's like they say about fiction: if you found the story manipulative, it's because it wasn't manipulative enough.

I do resent, a bit, that it's manipulativeness that has filled my bed with women at this late date. But I'm sure I respond to the distaff analogues, so whatever. It's nice finally to have a seat at the table.

Mike said...

I do resent, a bit, that it's manipulativeness that has filled my bed with women at this late date. But I'm sure I respond to the distaff analogues, so whatever. It's nice finally to have a seat at the table.

I feel ya. When I first encountered the "seduction community" and PUA, I had major misgivings about "not being myself" and wanting to be liked and attractive "for who I am". Ultimately, I realized that is a load of crock.

Reality is what reality is, and you can either adapt yourself to what is necessary to be successful, or you can wish "it was different" and remain frustrated and unsuccessful.

I think I've found a happy medium between blending my "core nice guy" with the PUA persona, but I still struggle from time to time. Thankfully, I am in a great relationship now with a great woman. The PUA stuff has been helpful I think in maintaining the frame that I am the prize, although I've dropped that to some degree in order to be more "real" (i.e. I don't flirt or talk to other attractive women as much).

On the negative side, I met her relatively early to when I was first introduced to these ideas, so I never really got an opportunity to see how much "success" I could have had. I just hope it isn't a "use it or lose it" thing.

Auntie Mom said...

Unbelievable on how an innocent comment simply meant to express similar personalities can kill attraction. This is why I think all guys should study PUA and the seduction community. It is so easy to say or do the wrong thing, and have absolutely no idea what you did wrong to mess it up.

Hey Mike, I'm the one who you quoted. I just wanted to clear up that unlike Dolly's date, this guy never said he was like me, I just observed that he was, after a couple of hours of nice conversation and keeping an open mind. Nothing wrong with that, just not my kind of guy, that's all. I'm looking for someone with more testosterone! :)

I've found that more often than not it's general stuff that's the date-killer, like talking about exes too much, not giving me a chance to get a word in, or not making eye contact. Mostly, in the end it's just an issue of personalities not meshing. I wouldn't sweat the small stuff.

Oh, except the one guy who was 45 minutes late (he kept calling and saying he was right around the corner) who greeted me by saying, "Well, at least you'll get a free meal out of it!"

You might not want to do THAT.

Ana Renee Jones said...

Dolly,

This is off topic but I would really like to see you post some advice for lonely guys leading up to V-Day. I am trying to help my guy friends get dates or at least have fun. And I am looking to refer them to online info. It's the last weekend before V-Day and it seems like a great time to go out and meet women. Any advice? Blog it.

Thanks,
Ana

Dolly said...

Halstead,
It wasn't a boring date at all, I enjoyed myself. As for the kissing, I don't mind taking things slowly (for once).

Anonymous 6:08pm,
See, I actually am more suspicious of community guys these days, because I've noticed so many of you have picked up bad habits and/or an air of phoniness (sorry to be harsh, but that's been my observation). I love that Tom is an "AFC" (though I wouldn't use any of those words to describe him) and was genuine enough to say something so potentially awkward.

Aphie,
Hahaha, let's not start the has-he-found-the-blog paranoia just yet, please! Good observation on the getting out of a long relationship, too (though he has indicated that he has already done the rebound thing). As for the PUA materials, the best I have come across recently is that it's a tool, like a hammer. A hammer can be used to build or to destroy.

Aphexcoil said...

Reality is what reality is, and you can either adapt yourself to what is necessary to be successful, or you can wish "it was different" and remain frustrated and unsuccessful.

Reality is a lot bigger than any one person's perception of it. I look at it like this -- yes, I could change my ways and become broaden my possibilities when it comes to women. However, by doing so, I'm blurring a lot of my own criteria and will probably wind up in a relationship with someone that really isn't for me.

However, if I remain myself and true to my own ideals and passions, I'll be much less successful at "first encounters" but much more successful at "long-term enjoyable" relationships with women who are a good fit for me (and I for them).

I view dating like anything else -- the more work you are willing to put into finding someone right for you, the better your chances of finding that person and enjoying a meaningful relationship.

The other alternative is to make myself for compatible to a much larger set of women and, by doing so, diminish my chances of finding that special someone who is really the one for me.

Reality is about perception. There may be an absolute reality -- but if there is, it is large enough to handle most of our perceptions so long as we know where to look and at least try to do so.

Aphexcoil said...

As for the PUA materials, the best I have come across recently is that it's a tool, like a hammer. A hammer can be used to build or to destroy.

Dolly,
I think you just hit the nail on the head. You're cute. You remind me of a female version of me.

Dolly said...

Aphie,
Are you flirting with me? Because clearly I can't tell these days.

Aphexcoil said...

Dolly,

Teasing you. (and flirting)

Vicious said...

Dolly,

What? So you didn't notice I was flirting with you as well? I must be really bad at this. :)

Actually, I really wish I knew how to flirt. Did Telecom Tom do any? Or was it all straight talk?

-Vicious

Dolly said...

Aphie,
what r u wearing? r u hottt?

Vicious,
Maybe I didn't realize you were flirting because you kept changing your name so often!

Casimir said...

Good PUAs are aware of the possibility of coming off "too smooth" - that's why they learn to read this situation and throw in some vulnerabilities and such when necessary.

If a guy seems "phony", even if he does it by being incredibly good and never making a mistake, it is a mistake in itself.

As for the infamous "female version of me" comment - I would so use that while picking up. Well timed and well executed, it could be a unique cold read that would pique some serious interest. It could also be used as a false disqualifier, or a qualification statement. Perhaps I'll field test it tonight.

Anonymous said...

...if I remain myself and true to my own ideals and passions, I'll be much less successful at "first encounters" but much more successful at "long-term enjoyable" relationships with women who are a good fit for me (and I for them).

I view dating like anything else -- the more work you are willing to put into finding someone right for you, the better your chances of finding that person and enjoying a meaningful relationship.

The other alternative is to make myself for compatible to a much larger set of women and, by doing so, diminish my chances of finding that special someone who is really the one for me.


I used to subscribe to all of this. I mean, every last word. And I can only speak for me, but since learning the tiniest bit of 'community' theory (and I'm a novice) I've found that virtually all of this is false. For me. Not necessarily you. Or anyone else. But for me, it's all proven wrong.

Because pre-theory, I put in far more "work." Vastly more. Constant coffee dates. They often went four hours. Women would be in tears, our connection was so complete. But they would almost never see me again.

And I felt like I was going mad. Because I knew the dates were "working." I KNEW they were deep. Real. And I couldn't understand why I was getting ruled out as boyfriend material. Hell, I couldn't understand why they wouldn't even TALK to me again.

The problem is that I was being put in friend-zone immediately. See, I AM a friend to women. I LOVE how they think. I LOVE talking about the stuff they talk about. I LOVE the idea of gradually getting to know a girl, and the wonderful interplay of mutual disclosure and increasing trust is perhaps life's greatest gift.

The problem is that women won't do this with you unless you have sex with them first. They just won't. They think they will. The movies show them doing it. The Mars and Venus books say it's how it works. But it's not. Sex is not the "prize" that two people enjoy when all of the truths have been shared. Sex is the opening bell. Sex is how you get a girl's attention.

If she's not drunk on the oxytocin she'll get from orgasming with you, she will interpret everything you do as arbitrarily and negatively as Dolly parsed Tom's idle remark. And the connection will be forever broken. Only when she's completely dosed with oxytocin and dopamine will she even entertain the possibility that you might have meant well.

Which Tom clearly did. But that won't help him now.

Only if you're having sex with them will they give you the benefit of the doubt. And the only way they'll have sex with you is if you attract them.

Thinking you don't need to attract first is like refusing to fill out Harvard's application because you want them to accept you for who you "really are." Once you're actually in Harvard, you'll have plenty of opportunity to reveal yourself. And in turn you'll learn what Harvard really is. But ya gotta get in, first.

Okay, that metaphor went sour. But you get the point. :-)

Since I gave up your way of thinking I'm dating better women. Not "hotter." BETTER. Deeper, more complicated, more engaged in the world, smarter, more motivated. Why? Because there isn't TIME for lesser women.

Finally, I really feel the need to tell every Firefox user out there that the Firefox extension called "Split Browser" is a must-get.

Aphexcoil said...

Dolly,

I'm on myspace if you want to see my picture.

Aphexcoil said...

anon,

That was a great post. You made your points well. I've never personally tried any of the PUA stuff at a bar/club but I'll do it this weekend just for shits and giggles and see what happens.

What was that really funny line from the community? Oh! "Buy me a drink and I'll let you kiss me!"

haha!

CoatMan said...

Dolly: Hmm, difficult to interpret that comment. It could mean either "friends box for you", or "wow, I really like you", or "hmm, interesting, you know, I do believe you're a lot like me! Small world, isn't it?".

I have often been accused of wanting to date a female version of me, although that is not quite true: I'd prefer somebody similar in lots of ways, but different enough to have complementary, dovetailing characteristics and abilities. Similarity is important in attitudes, but some other things (such as skills, and even, in some respects, style) can work better where there is some difference.

Of course, I'm not helping with the interpretation of his comment here...

CoatMan said...

Anonymous with the most recent long post about sex: Hmm, interesting theory, but how on earth do you think that courtship worked in the days when people didn't have sex until they got married?

Aphexcoil said...

Coatman,

It could mean either "friends box for you", or "wow, I really like you"

Do guys even have a "friend box?" I don't want to stereotype, but I know gay guys would love to shop with a woman -- but a straight guy? I've always been under the school of thought that if a guy likes a girl and is friends with her, to some extent he wants to bang her.

I don't think guys have a friend box as much as girls. That's a good question, though.

Anonymous said...

Courtship pre-birth control? I'm guessing that's almost a century ago? I would think most people married much younger that long ago, and chose from people in their small town, social, ethnic or religious group. It would have been a lot closer to an arranged marriage, I think. There was probably a whole lot less 'choice' for both parties, and a lot more dire necessity.

I really have no idea. But I'd bet things are different today. :-)


Note to aphex: I don't meet girls in bars/clubs, so I have no idea how that would go. Good luck, though.

Mike said...

Reality is a lot bigger than any one person's perception of it.

Aphexcoil,

IMO, this isn't an abstract, philosophical discussion we are having here ("What is the nature of reality?").

The bottom line is that the majority of women respond to certain behavior patterns, personality traits, communication patterns, body language, etc. You can be a "good" (easy-going, honest, loyal, polite, etc.) guy who is "good-looking" and be unsuccessful at least in terms of generating and maintaining initial attraction.

Unless you can generate sexual attraction (what women call "sparks" or "chemistry") you won't get the chance to demonstrate the other stuff except as a friend.

Anonoymous 3:59 pretty much nailed it in his reply.

That was a great post. You made your points well. I've never personally tried any of the PUA stuff at a bar/club but I'll do it this weekend just for shits and giggles and see what happens.

If you are happy and content with the "women and dating" part of your life, then just ignore all the PUA stuff. The guys who seek out this material, and study and apply it, do so because they are not happy and successful and realize they need to acquire the knowledge and skills to change the situation.

IMO though, you can't just try out a few lines one weekend and come to any sort of conclusion. For one thing, your calibration is likely to be way off, and it takes some time to get that right.

Aphexcoil said...

Courtship pre-birth control? I'm guessing that's almost a century ago? I would think most people married much younger that long ago, and chose from people in their small town, social, ethnic or religious group. It would have been a lot closer to an arranged marriage, I think. There was probably a whole lot less 'choice' for both parties, and a lot more dire necessity.

I really have no idea. But I'd bet things are different today. :-)


I'd say they were a lot more pre-arranged in the past as the thought of an upper-class socialite falling in love with a farm boy would be appalling to the family.

Aphexcoil said...

If you are happy and content with the "women and dating" part of your life, then just ignore all the PUA stuff. The guys who seek out this material, and study and apply it, do so because they are not happy and successful and realize they need to acquire the knowledge and skills to change the situation.

IMO though, you can't just try out a few lines one weekend and come to any sort of conclusion. For one thing, your calibration is likely to be way off, and it takes some time to get that right.


Well, I've never had a problem meeting women or having fun on dates because I just don't put a "life or death" necessity into it. I probably meet 50-100 new women every week because of my job so the law of "large numbers" comes into play at that point.

I was just suggesting that I go out and play that "eye contact" game with a chick and see who breaks first and just have fun with the whole thing. If she slaps me, oh well. If her boyfriend sees me ... oh shit.

Mike said...

Do guys even have a "friend box?" I don't want to stereotype, but I know gay guys would love to shop with a woman -- but a straight guy? I've always been under the school of thought that if a guy likes a girl and is friends with her, to some extent he wants to bang her.

I don't know about you, but I have female friends. They are women who I think have good personalities, and whose company I enjoy, but have no physical attraction to. There is one in particular who I think is a really good woman, smart, interesting, pretty face, but she is about 50-60 lb overweight. I am in a relationship so it is not an option, but if she lost the weight and I was single, I could see being with her in a sexual/romantic relationship.

The website below is kind of crude and cynical, and I do NOT entirely endorse it, but I think it does capture some part of the male/female dynamic:

http://intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html

Aphexcoil said...

I don't know about you, but I have female friends. They are women who I think have good personalities, and whose company I enjoy, but have no physical attraction to.

Oh, don't get me wrong -- I have female friends! I'm just saying that at one time or another, I've wondered what it would be like to have sex with them. Sort of a curiousness -- "I wonder what she does in bed? What cute little noises does she make? Etc."

I don't really have many "unattractive" female friends but if any of them came up to me and said, "let's have sex tonight," I would probably say sure.

I don't know what goes through a woman's head when she has placed a guy in her "friend box." I actually had a best friend in high-school that was female and all I ever wanted to do was have sex with her. I thought that if I just spent more and more time with her, she would surely see how great I was and want to sleep with me.

In fact, when she would complain about other guys, dates, etc. she would always follow up with, "God, I should just marry you."

In hindsight, I understand the problem -- no challenge. If there isn't a challenge, why play the game? What in life do we actively pursue that gives us no challenge?

My day did come, though. We made out and then I realized I didn't want to have sex with her after all.

Amazing how weird the human mind can be when it comes to love.

CoatMan said...

Aphexcoil: On friends boxes, I suspect that different men approach the question in different ways. A friends box might mean, "I like you as a person, but I'm not attracted to you", or "I like you as a person and, whether or not I feel some attraction for you, I realise that you're not suitable for a romantic relationship". Some men may not entertain the latter category, since they might be inclined to sleep with anybody whom they find vaguely attractive. Not all men, however, work like that.

Anonymous: While it is true that people did marry younger, and there was probably more parental intervention that there is now, you cannot really be suggesting, can you, that nobody fell in love before deciding who to marry until the invention of birth control? The literature of times past strongly suggests the opposite: that it was quite common for people to fall in love before anything more racy had happened than him kissing her hand. Indeed, there are some people even to-day who believe that they should not have sex before marriage, and they still manage to find long-term romantic partners to marry in due course.

Whilst it is probably true that a substantial proportion of women find challenging men attractive, and unchallenging ones unattractive (but often suitable candidates for non-romantic friendship), there strikes me as being very little support (and some substantial evidence to the contrary) for the theory that a woman can only feel romantic urges towards a man once she's had sex with him. Indeed, isn't a very strong counter-example this very 'blog's story of Dolly and Barman Ben, the former of whom fell deliriously for the latter after nothing more than some friendly banter?

Casimir said...

Since I hate pointless online debate, I field tested the "You're a female version of me" line last night in at least 3 different sets.

As we know, the field does not lie.

It got a great laugh every time I said it. Of course, I said it in a certain context, with a certain energy level and intonation, having projected a certain image, to a certain type of girl.

As with any "technique", there is a time and a place where it will work.

This one is pretty versatile and effective, though, and I'll probably say it many more times.

It works. QED.

Anonymous said...

The reality is that PUA definition is variable, it all depends on the person who is speaking. If someone say that being PUA is a bad thing, he just protect his ego for his low success with woman, and do not do anything about it. It is like ignorant person that thing rich people are [bad, superficial etc. put your s*it here] so he will do anything to prevent himself of getting rich.

As for "female version of me" ... I think it's good sign, it's not a line. He will want to learn more about you (to confirm his saying)... you will have time to get him if you want..

My male opinion

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