Thursday, January 26, 2006

Playing with the Player

Last year, I read a fascinating book about the world of pick-up artists called The Game by Neil Strauss. While I hate the idea of men reading this book as a means of getting techniques on how to pick up chicks (if anything, it's more of a cautionary tale of how playing games can sabotage genuine relationships), I think every woman should read it. The tricks mentioned in the book are clever and based in psychological and sociological behavior. If you're female and think you might be impervious to these routines, you're wrong. If you think the tips were designed to hit on dumb women, you're wrong again: one of the codas of the PUA (pick-up artist) community is that you go for the girl you think is the most beautiful and unattainable.

While reading this book, the only thing that disturbed me more than how scripted these spiels were was the fact that I knew I'd be a sucker for them.

Last night, I met a living, breathing pick-up artist.

And, of course, his name was Dave.


(And no, I did not feel like Molly Ringwald.)

I was at an industry event with a friend, Pretty Polly. These events are mildly fun and are good for honing my networking skills, but the last place I expect to meet a potential hook-up.

I don't remember if Dave was introduced to our group or came over himself, but as soon as I saw his name tag, I knew he'd be trouble (for those playing along, this is now the fourth Dave that has crossed my path in less than a month). Naturally, I was immediately attracted to him. After all, he fit the profile: tall, sandy hair, blue eyes, looked like he had lots of issues. Plus, within minutes of meeting me, he was giving me shit.

I love it when guys try to get a rise out of me. It's pretty easy to get me on the defensive and I love nothing more than to spark up a playful argument or play devil's advocate. There's a thin line between lust and pseudo-hate (for reference, watch some movies starring Kate Hepburn opposite Spencer Tracy or Cary Grant; that's the kind of chemistry no Meg Ryan or Tom Hanks can manufacture on-screen today).

PUA Dave was on my case immediately, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't start it. As soon as I saw his hand-made (as opposed to printed out) name tag, I accused him of crashing the industry event, and grilled him on his credentials for being there. At first he played passive to my aggressive, acting surprised at my boldness and asking Polly,

"Is she always like this?"

"Yes, and that's why we love her. It's endearing. You find it endearing, too."

"No, actually, I find it annoying."

The game was on.

It took me a little while to figure out that Dave was a PUA. I kept grilling him, which was an obvious IOI (indicator of interest) on my part. In fact, initially I was acting more like the PUA than he was, doing the cocky-funny act that is so widely recommended in the pick-up network. Cocky equals confident and confidence can be very sexy.

PUA Dave turned the tables on me in no time. He asked if my hair color was real. I laughed, showed him my roots, and said, "what do you think?" He called me mean. I didn't catch it right away, but what he was doing was "negging" me. This is the term for when a PUA says something negative to cut a girl down and put her on the defensive. He does this playfully, to create a charged (but not hostile) atmosphere. Look at it this way: beautiful girls are used to being hit on in a direct, hey-baby kind of way. They get told how attractive they are all the time as well as being given slew of other compliments (not that we don't love it). Or, they don't get hit on much at all, because guys get intimidated by them. The guy who has guts to approach a woman and challenge her instead of giving her a line about how hot she is is going to get her attention. Think of it as slightly more sophisticated playground hair-pulling.

Yep, PUA Dave had me at, "are you always this obnoxious?"

I decided to fool him by asking how long he thought Pretty Polly and I were friends (we have known each other for less than a couple of months but people have mistaken us for sisters).

He said, "Let me give you the best friends test."

My eyes widened and jaw dropped open. "You're a pick-up artist!"

PUA tried to play it cool and of course denied it.

"I know what the best friends test is," I continued. "It's one of the tricks pick-up artists use."

"What's the best friends test?" asked Polly (she had read the book, but only parts of it).

"PUA Dave asks us if we use the same shampoo. We look at each other and then say we don't know. He says it doesn't matter, because what counts is that we looked at each other before answering, which shows a close bond. The whole thing is part of a routine."

PUA Dave smirked and said he didn't need any routines.

I shook my head, heady on the knowledge that I knew what he was. "All that making fun of me before was part of it, too."

"You mean negging?"

"Ha! You even know the lingo! You are totally part of the pick-up network."

"He is a PUA!" Polly joined in. "Which means he used to be an AFC!"

(That's another acronym they use, which stands for 'average frustrated chump'.)

PUA Dave tried to deny it, but then decided to play along, negging me again by asking if my nails were real. I laughed, enjoying every second of this twisted scenario.

"See, you're having a good a time and liking the vibe that's being created here. And when this event is over, you and I are going to go out for coffee."

I laughed again, and kept laughing. Then I blushed, because I was attracted to him, even before he began his psycho-manipulation game. He knew he had me.

I gave him my business card ("only if you write your cell phone number on it") asking if he was going to add it to the big manila folder of other girls' numbers he collected.

"I'm not like that."

Yeah fucking right.

I mingled some more with my fellow industry professionals, even exclaiming to one about how we had a real pick-up artist in our midst. Even as I was denouncing PUA Dave, my eyes kept following him around the room. He came over a couple of times, touching my arm, my back, establishing a tactile intimacy even as he told me that's what he was doing and I rolled my eyes saying, "I know. I read the book." I asked how old he was and he said 32, which I knew was a lie (he looked older).

While in the middle of talking to the industry guy and Polly, PUA Dave came back around, took my arm, and said, "we're leaving now."

I know what you're thinking. I should have told this creep to fuck off. Instead, I waved good-bye and let him help me into my coat. (This is one area where PUA Dave gets points: he had some excellent gentleman-like tendencies. Boys, when's the last time you helped a lady into her coat?)

Once outside, I was ready for a mini-adventure, but also a little scared, because I didn't know who the hell this guy was and, despite my strong physical attraction, did not feel safe with him. I said we should walk west, which was in the direction of my subway line.

He made me walk at a slow pace (I normally walk fast) and talked in this calm, lulling tone of voice (some PUAs employ mild hypnosis techniques, and I felt like that's what he was doing to me).

At one point, he stopped walking and faced me. He pushed me against the Plexiglas wall of a bus stop and kissed me. Oh man. It was so arousing. He was a very sensual kisser, dominant yet gentle (which could describe his whole persona, actually). I had to keep swearing to myself I wouldn't sleep with him. I was crazy enough to leave the bar with this guy; I'd have to be straightjacket-bound to fuck him.

I was hoping he'd take me to some dimly-lit bar where we could make out some more and I could continue to fight the urge to tear his clothes off. However, a little later, when he pressed me against a light post and passionately kissed me again, I knew this "date" would be over soon. (Oh, that's another goal in the world of PUAs, to separate the girl from her friends and take her on an instant date.)

PUA Dave took me to a cheap, brightly-lit cafe. It was about as romantic as a dentist's office.

I asked him about his family and he talked about his mother's journals and mentioned one of them was from 1963, the year he was born.

I got quiet. I did the math.

"Yeah, I'm 42, not 32."

"You lied."

It was like someone snapped their fingers in front of my face, breaking the spell. I cancelled my order and we walked out of the cafe.

He walked with me to the subway, trying to explain, apologize. I had nothing more to say to him.

PUAs can use all the tricks and techniques they want/need to. In the same way that a good con artist is to be admired for his skill, despicable as his deeds may be, a pick-up artist is a talented individual. But a liar is a liar.

I'll play with a PUA, but I won't play with a liar.

56 comments:

William said...

Hello Dolly

Thanks for the book reference. I thought there was nothing new under the sun w.r.t seduction techniques but, apparently, I was wrong.

But technique is neutral - it has no moral weighting. It's the motive behind the wielding of technique that attracts moral credit or debit.

Males have several drives which motivate them: sex, money, prestige and power spring to mind. But you can draw a line in the sand and divide all males into two groups. Those motivated by Sex and those motivated by Power - they are two distinct psychological types, as real as the Jungian Extrovert and Introvert. While, I guess, it is possible for both the Sex and Power drives to be strong in one individual, in most cases only one is dominant.

Although there seems to be a high prestige factor behind the motivations of PUAs, I suspect they fall on the Power side of the line. Power for what? To make money? Hardly. To give a woman a good time? Wouldn't that be nice. But there's a rather seedy side to Power that puts power freaks (of any sort) beyond the pale as far as I'm concerned. It's the pleasure they get in causing their "victims" pain. They think "If someone is daft enough to fall for my [whatever] they deserve all they get." This is like saying "If someone is daft enough to enter my store they deserve to be ripped off." It's nasty. It's mean. And there's far too much of it in this world for my liking.

Had you gone with this man, he would probably have embarrassed you in some way to get his kicks. If the sex had been good you would at least have got something from the encounter, but good sex demands more of the same, and he would no longer be around to provide it. He would have moved on to his next "case".

Still, you had an erotic encounter with this man which many would envy. The PUA's technique seems to be a good one that can be used by both men and women - and justified in less psychotic hands. I wonder if Pussy has read The Game.

Best

William

Larissa said...

wow, love that you called him out on his game plan!

Dolly said...

Hi William,

Wow, you are really pulling for me to get together with Pussy! I wonder what it is about him that's made you root for him (other than him being a sweetie... *sigh*).

You're absolutely right about PUAs and power. If you read The Game, you'll see that many of Style and Mystery's "disciples" end up being sociopathic power freaks who don't seem to be interested in women at all, and instead spend time learning how to manipulate people. SCA-RY.

I do think some of the techniques that are advised are useful, namely the one about becoming a more confident person and improving your mind and body. I love a man who is self-assured without being an asshole about it. I also love a man who knows how to be dominant when it's asked for (because I can be pretty bossy). So the power struggle of the PUA game is one that's dangerously appealing to me. What I don't like is how most of these women probably have no idea who they're getting involved with and may end up having their feelings trampled.

William said...

"I wonder what it is about him that's made you root for [Pussy] (other than him being a sweetie... *sigh*)."

Cheap shot, Dolly, and unworthy of an intelligent, articulate and successful woman.

I'm a people watcher. I can get what I want from your blog without participation. I just thought it would be nice, since you have been so generous and honest in telling us about your life, to give something in return.

I view changes in human sexual behaviour as an indicator of possible changes (hopefully for the better) in human civilisation. That's why I'm here. As yet there are precious few indications that things are shifting. I have my own view on the way ahead which I tried to set out in my comment to Vespertine at http://sharpesttool.blogspot.com/2006/01/sex-poll.html

I can see that your life is not going that way, but I enjoy your posts anyway and envy your writing skills.

For now, Best wishes

William

... jacek ... said...

Every day I am amazed at the utter insecurity of my sex, and this book that you speak of is such a prime example of just that, insecurity. The reason that these men act the way they do is to compensate for a lack of something else in their lives.

As for William's assessment that men are inherently divided into two groups. I unconditionally disagree. Humanity has always tried to characterize, place and order things, however we are complex creatures and although certain behaviours are present in the vast majoity of the population, to say that they are the prime driving forces is in my humblest opinion, wrong.

Sex, Power, Money, all those are great, but it would be naive to say that men do not want love, do not want one partner, or children, there are also desires to sarafice oneself for the benefit of others that do not relate directly or indirectly to power or sex. Humanity, is afterall a beautiful, confused, horny animal, and to understand it means more then to place it in group A or B.

Anywho... Dolly, the dude sounded like a total chump, and dont worry about finding mr. right... things like that have a way of working themselves out, just know that a sucessful relationship requires both parties to have lots of patience, history, openness and compromise.

Cheers,

- el :)

Dolly said...

El, I appreciate the thoughtful comment.

And I'm not jaded enough to believe that all men want is sex, money and power. I know many do, and that's why the cross-section of men I find truly worthwhile is so narrow, though I should be grateful I still find plenty of men interesting enough to go out with. I won't lose faith that there's someone out there who is right for me, deep down I strongly believe it (besides, the low points make the high points that much sweeter). I just need the occasional sign that things are going to work out, that I'm heading in the right direction and towards a happy fate. It's not be to be jaded, so I won't even try (though I do get disheartened once in a while).

From what I read of your blog, it sounds like you found someone special. Glad to see there are people out there who are lucky in love and I appreciate you spreading the optimism.

Anonymous said...

Dolly, I just discovered your blog, and I have never been more in love with anything! You are Carrie Bradshaw, and your blog is pure brilliance!

I hope that you stop running into creepy PUA's.

Ps-I just dated six Josh's. All of which were creeps, so i really appreciated your story with all the daves, its a sign hun, stay away from them!

Damn It Anyway said...

Damn...Games DO work.

Anonymous said...

My darling Dolly,

I'm a little confused. Early in your post, you said you knew he was lying about his age, because he looked older. But then when he admitted it, you cancelled your order and went home. Why the strong reaction to the admission versus the suspicion?

~pretty kitty

Dolly said...

Kitty, I can undestand your puzzlement. Thing is, I knew this guy was a sketchmeister from the beginning, but couldn't help my attraction to him. I played along, but waited for him to slip up and show a crack in his foundation, so that I could show that he's not as smooth as he thinks he is. What do you know, it worked! After that, he tried other ploys, like appealing to my sympathy (trying to justify his lie by saying he never felt good enough, trying to get me to open up about my own feelings) but the game was over by then.

One positive thing that came out of this is that Polly and I have thought of a new trick to weed out PUAs. I wonder if we'll encounter any more...

Cameron said...

You have one thing in common with Neil Strauss. You write as good as he does. That book was great entertainment but if guys try to use it as a "pick up" manual they are going to be very embarrassed. I know several groups of women who already practice active "Anti-Game" defenses. I saw them use it against a geek at Wetbar when he tried to use the "whole room destroyer". He wimpered away with his tail bewteen his legs when they called him on it. Fun stuff. You go girls.

Dolly said...

Cameron, do you have any links for these anti-PUA sites? I'm curious to read what these women have to say...

Cameron said...

No Dolly. But you should start one. I'll point my anti-PUA girl friends to it. Or maybe this blog could become the resource. You could become as famous as "Style". What would your anti-PUA knickname be?

Dolly said...

Cameron, I think I'd stick with Dolly as a name. And I don't think this will be the last time I write about PUAs. Now that I've had an encounter with one, I'm on high alert. I think Polly and I could come up with a system of identifying and protecting ourselves from PUAs. It's certainly something I've been thinking about.

NewYorkMoments said...

The story of my dating life: "There's a thin line between lust and pseudo-hate"

Once someone lies and you catch them in it, they're capable of doing anything and you can never trust them again.

Spill The Beans said...

Dave=really unlucky name here. Of the four divorced women in my office, three were married to a Dave. Run! Run fast!

Nah, only joking (sort-of).

That's a really creepy method of social control given that what most women crave from a man is someone who actually listens to her and/or understands what she is saying and even may validate it, the way other women do.

It kind of made me shudder, reading this post...PUA's and liars...eek.

The Asian Playboy said...

There is perhaps one fallacy in all this talk as well as your thinking...

ALL ATTRACTIVE WOMEN ARE IN THE GAME.

The moment you hit puberty and those little things on your chest started to expand, men have been noticing you and you've been socially conditioned by society, by men, and by your fellow women to be IN the Game, subconsciously or not.

Some women, of course, take it to extremes taking advantage of their skills and beauty and plying them for material possessions from sugar daddies. While others deny it, but consistently put themselves out there, shoot down men who don't stack up and hunt for either their ideal lover or provider.

At some point in their lives, many of these PUAs never learned that social conditioning and flirting techniques in order to be successful with women. They learned in their twenties (sometimes 30s and 40s) while their female counterparts were already skilled PUAs in their own right at the age of 16.

An arms race long won.

Anyways, good story. There's going to be a PUA Reality TV Show where they take an average guy and hopefully turn him into a man somewhat skilled with the ladies. It will be based in New York.

There was also a PUA on an ABC reality TV show or something, about those women who went out on internet dates? Anyways, the PUA did bed the woman.

The Asian Playboy - Seducing Women to the Asian Way
http://theasianplayboy.blogspot.com

Dolly said...

Shangri-la, not all of the methods the PUAs use are manipulative. A lot of it has to do with improving your own self-esteem and being confident enough to approach strangers and talk to them. I mean, how lame is it when a guy is too shy to start a conversation or ask you out? Don't you want a man that's going to have the guts to do that?

Asian Playboy, I won't dispute you that all attractive women are in the game. I think it's safe to say that all people are in the game, of earning each other's attention, respect, love, what have you. I know that beauty and sex can be a currency as much as the dollar is. Do I enjoy it when a guy buys me a drink because he thinks I'm pretty? Of course. Do I like it when a guy's sole purpose is to get in my pants by whatever means necessary? Not so much. I understand very well that both men and women need to be captivated and challenged. And if women are aware of the situation and happy to be a part of a PUA's harem, good for them. What bothers me is all the potential for people to act in a deceitful, disrespectful, and harmful way using these strategies. I can see a lot of potential for PUAs to abuse their power.

The Asian Playboy said...

I won't argue that, as you said, "I can see a lot of potential for PUAs to abuse their power."

Only to say it's like martial arts training, they can do the right thing. Or they won't.

Though I think worrying about it is kind of senseless. I've encountered many wannabe PUAs in training in my time in LA and those PUAs fresh out of training. Rarely do any of them reach stellar heights. PUAs are a statistical anomaly. Good PUAs are even more rare.

Really, I think a lot of guys just trying to get their groove on would love to have the kind of night you just had (Jan 30 posting). IE, just slept with a woman. Go out, grind with another woman, make out with one, etc.

PS I suggest that you turn on word verification for you comments. You're going to end up with Spam comments otherwise.

The Asian Playboy - Seducing Women to the Asian Way
http://theasianplayboy.blogspot.com

ben said...

no way is that guy a PUA. a real PUA would never have lied when you asked how old he is, he would have replied with "how much do you weigh?" :)

Yes, I've read the book, and no, I'm not a real PUA either ... actually I'm a virgin :(
the book has helped my game quite a bit though, maybe I'll get lucky before my next birthday.
Maybe I'll start a blog about it ...

BigSend said...

Its not lying, its flirting ;)

However, I think he is a low PUA for not admitting it. If a girl calls me on being a PUA, I'd be instant rapport.

"OMG, you caught me! I am soo in A3 now, so whatcha got going for you, girl, besides looks ;)"

Someone to actually talk to about this out there cuz it gets lonely keeping a secret.

Anonymous said...

Hey Dolly,

Love the blog.

Just to balance things up a little here, not all guys who set out to learn how to attract women are creeps and sleaze bags. Sure, some are (and probably were before they got Game). Most tools can be used for good or evil, it's the intent that really counts, not the technique - Game is no different.

And remember, an AFC guy who is overly nice (eg., doing unearned favours, saying exaggerated compliments, buying expensive dinners and gifts beyond his budget, etc.) is being just as manipulative, it's just that it is far more acceptable by current day norms.

I my experience, most of the men I've encountered who want to learn how attract women better are also generally trying to make themselves better men for the women they meet. They want to be confident and respectful enough to everyone without being walked all over. They want to be nice, but not needy. They go to the gym to improve their bodies. They dress better than they ever have. They get better haircuts and some style. They are socially aware and know how to have a long conversation without becoming incredibly boring. They can playfully tease without being outright mean (ok, negs are a greyish area, but they are also a very small part of Game). They learn how to be far better lovers, how to build anticipation, how to draw out a woman's desires without making her feel cheap and easy, how to kiss and touch her in the right places at the right time in the right amount. Mmmm.

In short, given the choice between a wimpy AFC and a PUA gentleman, it's not hard to guess which man most women would want to have and show off in their lives.

By the way Dolly, are you free for drinks tonight? I think I love you ;-)

Ryan

Dolly said...

BigSend,
After my experience with the PUA scene this weekend, I can definitely see how it can make people bond. There aren't many who know about it, so it's like you're in the club together, with its own language even.

Ryan,
What a great, thoughtful comment. Please remember that this post was written after my initial encounter and since then I have had more positive interactions with the PUA community. I agree with what you said about self-improvement, and I think that's possibly the best tip that you can pick up. Work on the inner game and outer game will follow. I mean, last night this group of guys started talking to me and my friends and I give them credit for approaching us, but they were so boring! In some ways, I wish they had known some PUA techniques, because it would have made the conversation so much more interesting and made then come off as so much more charismatic! Oh well. Let me think about that drink, okay? ;)

Eurosabr03 said...

Just a quick question: Had Mr. pseudo-PUA hit you with "I'm 42" in response to your original question, would the result NOT have been the "Instant EEEWW"? You seemed to be dealing with a quietly confident, assertive man--even enjoying his playing the dominant role, which both of you perceived as an appropriate role, not his aggressively dominating you--and it's odd for such a man to show insecurity about age by *lying* about it. (However, a PUA *would* have countered with "How much do you weight?" or "Old enough...not to ask...things like that right away.") The thing about it is it's a question that is purely intended to make the guy QUALIFY himself (to use the ungrammatical PUA terminology) when asked early on.

I also think you need to understand that your "above-average" night (one in bed, and a make-out session with another man) is the province of attractive women, and that ONLY men with looks, wealth, or above-average social savvy and game in handling women get results like that on a regular basis. As a member of the "Secret Society", you have a privileged perspective, so I think you know LITTLE about the kind of inattention or lack of interest from women that drives men to study pick-up religiously. You might have met some "naturals", but I doubt you've met a guy who had to learn PU.

Dolly said...

Euro,

42 is a bit old for me, but I wouldn't necessarily have been repulsed to find out that was his real age. As you said, there were other ways he could have playfully deflected the question. I knew he wasn't totally adept at picking up, because he didn't create any trust on my part and he showed moments of shiftiness or insecurity (toward the end of the night he even said, "this isn't working"). After a while, not only did I sense how sketchy he was, but I just wasn't having fun anymore.

Tonic said...

Hi Dolly,

As a PUA myself, I'm quite intrigued by your post. It's quite interesting to see that ladies are beginning to become aware of this ``game'' we play. I'll be the first to say that not all PUAs are as -- for lack of a better word -- noble as they may proclaim.

However, there are a certain few of us who don't appreciate Mystery's method, who do not believe in negging (What's the point of lowering somebody's value to raise yours? I don't find it necessary.), and who do have more gallant intentions. Indeed, some (like myself) are simply searching for the right woman. I'm not interested in games, canned routines, manipulation, nor bringing on any sort of pain.

I must agree with William's statement that the ``technique is neutral -- it has no moral weighting. It's the motive behind the wielding of technique that attracts moral credit or debit.''

This is right on the mark. Many PUAs are interested in sex and power alone, and feel that surrounding themselves with women is one great way to attain this. Indeed, I find that many books and courses (especially those from Mystery) do little or nothing to demote this, which does disturb me. Additionally, the lingo does it little justice. Phrases like ``the game,'' ``pick-up'' and ``seduction'' all have manipulative and dark undertones. I've ``publically'' voiced my opinion on these phrases and acronyms in multiple fora; unfortunately, there's been no struggle to change the way we talk or think about the ``art.''

Another thing that bothers me is that most material doesn't cover information past getting the lady in bed. Once a PUA has found a woman he with whom he shares a deeper bond, he is left to his own devices. These are, more often than not, less than fully developed. It's a common problem with many PUAs: they lose (or never build upon) their ability to maintain a stable relationship. For this reason, I've proposed (again, on multiple fora) that PUAs read ``The Art of Loving'' by Erich Fromm. If you've not read it, perhaps it'd also be an interesting read for you as well.

In any case, the true PUA will not be weeded out. He is a confident man with enough originality to lose the pick-up lines and routines you've learned about. He's not a liar; in fact, he's brutally honest. He is playful. He is interesting, charming... seductive. His technique is precise enough to be considered a form of art. And he's not ``out to get you.'' You are interesting, a jewel that has sparked his eye, worth his while, and that's a grand compliment.

I can see that your blog has caught the interest of PUAs all over the place. Hopefully we will cause no nuisance. I'm quite interested to read what you encounter in your outings and how you experience said encounters.

I would like to briefly reiterate (as I feel that, while you seem to take no offence, others may and I'd like to defend those of us who have a kinder take to ``the game'') that we're not all bad. If you'd like to read popular techniques from instructors who promote honesty, I'd recommend reading material from Juggler.

Thanks for taking the time to post this experience. I look forward the possibility of more.

With the kindest regards,

~

Dolly said...

Tonic,

Thank you for such a thoughtful comment.

I realize I may be giving some PUAs the benefit of the doubt and that many are out to get laid as often as possible (but hey, aren't most AFCs, too?). I can imagine a darker and more manipulative side to learning attraction. And I am not interested in getting involved in a threesome or anybody's MLTR ring.

While lots of these guys are looking for nothing but sex, I've encountered others that are more relationship-oriented. Some need to sow their wild oats and some are looking to settle down, which is true outside of PUA circles, too. Sure, it would be nice if some of these instructors focused more on relationships, but a guy's got to start somewhere, and that place is attracting a woman. Teaching men how to be more confident, charming, and alluring is not the worst thing in the world. What they do with those skills is their responsibility.

I'm flattered to have caught the attention of you and other PUAs and don't consider any of you a nuisance at all! In the same way that you guys enjoy getting an honest female perspective on attraction, I enjoy reading about your experiences and techniques. It's entertaining and this way I have an idea of what to expect! Plus, I've had so much fun when encountering PUAs in person.

I'll check out some of Juggler's material; thanks for the recommendation!

Matt Hutson said...

Great comments.

One question: PUA Dave initially denied being a PUA. Does that count as lying?

Dolly said...

Matt,
No, that doesn't count as lying.

FF-X said...

>Early in your post, you
>said you knew he was lying
>about his age, because he
>looked older. But then
>when he admitted it, you
>cancelled your order and
>went home. Why the strong
>reaction to the admission
>versus the suspicion?

Attraction is not a choice. He turned into a wuzzy. (Source: DoubleYourDating)
From a men's perspective this would have been a hot chick transforming into a 500 pounds chick right in front of his eyes.

@Dolly: It is really great to see a female perspective for that and the other Field Report.

I am also seeing that there is a good and a bad thing to the whole PUA scene, a light and a dark side (Styles Post on Bristollair.com).

But I have also seen that I was at the dark side before ("nice guy") and I can just wholeheartedly point to an article on www.heartlessbitches.com about "nice guys", which helped me realize that I was not only doing wrong, but also hurting woman all the time.

I now just had the situation of "role-reversal", where I blundered into a gay-club and got approached in a stalker / "nice guy" way.

It was really a creepy experience, but it has again showed me how wrong I have been as a "nice guy". Now the challenge is to not become a jerk and to find this "golden middle path".

My life has very much improved since I have started with mASF and not only me, also the girls I am with have more fun. So I guess its a win-win.

For you not wanting to have a MLTR / threesome:

The woman that are in a MLTR are in there, because they want it.

MLTRs only work in the longtime if a PUA is honest about it, so most will be. The best example of this was a LR, where the girl told the guy after the lay "Call me if you wanna fuck". She also had two other FBs (friend with benefits).

And isn't it better to be honest about something than to cheat behind the back?

If you need more material to read:

www.bristollair.com

- razorjack method
- hitori on woman (inner game, nature and reality)

You also see there that Style was critical about 'social robots', 'dark and light' path and so on.

Jim Guglielmino said...

Without intending to insult, my sense is that playing this game, particularly starting it, as you admit you did, marks you as complicit. If you had an attraction to him, why not just tell him that you feel an attraction and go on from there? Why the need to invite and inspire the jerk into playing the stupid little pick up game? It tends to mark you as a player and a tease, not very attractive, I'm afraid.
Gug

Matt said...

>>One question: PUA Dave initially denied being a PUA. Does that count as lying?<<
In our society the one time it is "ok" to lie is when proclaiming innocence. If a man tells a court that he is innocent and is later found guilty he cannot be held in contempt.

Anonymous said...

Zan says that honesty is the most powerful aphrodisiac.

Knightwithoutarmor said...

>> Anonymous said...
>> Zan says that honesty is the most powerful aphrodisiac.

It's good to see some other masters mentioned here... this was too Style-oriented. The fact is that Style's 'Annihilation' method is a derivative of Mystery's method, and both result in the sort of PUA that was mentioned in the original blog entry by Dolly.

One of the biggest indicators that this was not a particularly good PUA is that he used canned material and existing techniques, rather than understand the reasons behind all of these and form his own, unique, method -- which is something all the really good PUAs do.

The Mystery and Style methods are most effective for one night stands and short term relationships, and there is no emphasis on making any sort of deep connection. It is strictly pick up oriented stuff, not relationship stuff. Worse, the tendency to produce "social robots" like Tyler Durden is inherent in them.

Other methods mentioned here are Juggler (actually Wayne Elise) and Zan. There are many others, like David DeAngelo, Ross Jeffries, Grant Adams, Badboy, etc., and I've read most of their materials, and even met a few. The thing is that despite commonalities (most of these are distilled concisely in Swinggcat's ebook), there are a lot of differences (some regional -- Badboy for example is European and from experience I know his approach is better there than in North America), and various methods and combinations will produce PUAs that behave differently. If women expect to detect PUAs, they'll need to understand that Style and Mystery followers represent only a small cross-section of the seduction community, and moreover, that all of the good PUAs have acquired a deeper insight and moved beyond specific methods into their own thing. I regularly hang out with several such people in Vancouver, and even I cannot tell them apart from guys that are natural and never studied or practiced pick up. These are people that have completed a transformation into a different person. Zan is a good example -- a computer geek, yet when I met him it was as if meeting Don Juan. He and several others are able to do something beyond mere pick up -- they induce women to essentially fall in love with them. I've seen this numerous times in the eyes of women after the best among my friends have had as little as half an hour with them. In the end, anti-PUA defenses will at best filter out the lower ranks of PUAs. That is still something, as those are the majority. Indeed, most that join the various seduction lairs now becoming common in larger North American cities simply do not have the persistence and motivation to become PUAs.

Speaking of motivation, I think it's simplistic to think that the majority of aspiring PUAs are motivated by only sex and/or power. I think that for most, at least most guys I know, that is just one of many reasons. I'd actually say that those are the primary reasons mainly for the Mystery and Style followers specifically. In my case, I rarely aim for one night stands; I like relationships. I don't hide that I'm a PUA, though I may not be in a hurry to reveal it. I've realized that there are many things I didn't know I would want in a partner for a long term relationship, and the experiences with different women have been invaluable for me to figure out what it is I am looking for. Additionally, I want to be good enough that when I find "the one", my skill will guarantee that I can take her as my wife.

Anonymous said...

Hey Dolly,

I am proud of you for sharing your story with everyone and for the brutal honesty!

I am a PUA named David and I am 32 - and it was wierd when you started the post because we never met. No, I'm not the one in the story that is 42. You have permission to stop squirming now - a reaction I do tend to get from women as of late.

Anyhow, I first imagined Dave was kidding when he said 32 when it was obvious he was older, which you said at that point and that was my impression then. Obviously his reaction when you called him a liar proved that he WAS trying to lie. Not what you expected me to say, was it? Well, I think his second mistake was running after you to apologize - he should have sat there and enjoyed the coffee till you wised up and ran back into his arms (not that you think about that, right?). Furthermore, when you read references about the statistics of human sexuality, I bet you wish there was approx 1.00 more PUA's in your life.

But keep your chin up, kiddo, and maybe one day you will be lucky enough to have me look all the way down at your eyes.

Knightwithoutarmor said...

For whatever reason this blog shows time of replies but not dates. I only realized the original blog entry was nearly a year old after I had posted...

Anonymous said...

I loved reading this. Keep it up.

The London Dater said...

Dolly,

I am, of sorts, a PUA. Like every other man in existence. Our brain is, in a sense, wired to seek out attractive women and flirt/date/seduce/have sex with them. The only difference between a 'PUA' and an 'AFC', therefore, is the technique by which they achieve their goals, in addition to their rationale in achieving them.

Much of the PUA community is very positive in nature: empowering men who may be lacking in confidence and who see girls they like, but can't pluck up the courage to speak to them. On the positive side, it's about inspiring guys to improve themselves with the ultimate aim of 'internalising' these canned routines, so that rather than a successful of false, cheesy pick-up lines, you're left with a man whose confident with his own patter and his ability with women.

Your experience seems to suggest you've met a guy who is 99% of the way there, but not quite. But the point is this - you fell for it. He succeeded. He charmed you. And - and you may not want to hear this - he wouldn't have succeeded if your subconscious didn't want him to.

The fact he lied about his age is, of course, bad and there is no denying that this was wrong.

That said, you should embrace the PUA community, because women offer similar communities in return. Just as men have 'The Game', you have 'The Rules'. Are we, the male of the species, complaining because we can't get into your pants, simply because you're following a ten-step rule whereby you need to date a guy three times before kissing him goodbye?

I would dispute accusations that 'the game' is premised on insecurity. It's not. It's based on 'inability' - an initial inability to attract women and find romance. But the skills it teaches you allow you to overcome that inability and turn it into, well...an 'ability'. And, if anything, 'the game' works more effectively on girls who themselves are the most insecure: the 'neg' - the PUA's stock-in-trade, is designed to hit at this very attribute when delivered at a girl who is too-big-for-her-boots or who has too high an impression of herself. When ego and reality dissipate, the PUA profits. When stability and security merges, we fail.

In summary, I would relax. It's flattering that a guy approached you in this way. Yes, he probably did want to get into your pants. But, he clearly thought you were attractive for him to approach - and in that case, pretty much all guys will want to get into your pants (unless they're gay). It's just that not all guys admit it...

The London Dater
----------------------
www.thelondondater.com

Assanova said...

Oh my god, this is fucking hilarious! I use to do this same shit.

byrdeye said...

There is a debate amongst PUAs about how much a man's physical looks matter for attraction.

Naturally, I was immediately attracted to him. After all, he fit the profile: tall, sandy hair, blue eyes, looked like he had lots of issues.

So, I'm curious. How often have you deviated from your physical type here and why?

benjamin said...

All men need to be educated on romance somehow. The skill isn't encoded in our DNA; whether it be coming from our family or our experiences, there is a source and no man can say that they were naturally born compatible to women.

It might seem disgusting and manipulative to practice the art of Pick-up but it is truly necessary for some men. Especially in today's world where everything is so fast paced, impersonal - alot of good guys get left in the dust. When I say good guys i mean guys that have good intentions like a relationship.

Piedra said...

Those are guys who bypass part of the real essence of being a PUA, for a real PUA works on what the community calls "INNER GAME" witch is on Identity, Values, Congruency, and the definition as David Daita who wrote the way of the Superior man knows his own path, and embraces it!

-- SalsaSoldier

sara said...

PUA"s. You all have to play a stupid game to get laid...we (females) get it when, how, and with whoever we want it with WHENEVER we want it. Now remember a PUA is the same as an average frustrated chump because you are all still trying so hard (LOL). Males will never choose as freely as us...get over it, besides we are more sexual anyways, males just work for us. Yah, on your knees...in and out...ooh and make those desparate faces too!!(desperate to please us) You can peacock...but you can never reach the level of atractiveness that a female has.

Chief said...

Excellent blog post, Dolly.

I'm one of these pickup artists as well, but I like to base my "game" on honesty, which I think is something that all PUAs should come to.

"Inner Game" is more important than "Outer Game." If a man has Inner Game, he will be proud of his true self and wouldn't feel the least bit of shame about telling the absolute truth. My theory is that confident honesty like that is attractive.

Feel free to check out my PUA blog at http://chiefpua.blogspot.com

-Chief

seo said...

Hi,
I have one Social networking site. This is Artists related site. U can make your Id and password here. There is so Many topics. Plz visit here : http://www.puaster.com/

NFM said...

I've conveniently written an article about this post to illustrate the hypocrisy is Feminist women:

http://manhood101.com/fem4.html

NFM said...

I've conveniently written an article about this post to illustrate the hypocrisy in Feminist women's thinking:

http://manhood101.com/fem4.html

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Princess said...

Hey girl, good job calling him out. I personally have run into many PUA's who's game is subtler and harder to detect, and thus more effective. I once called out 3 in one night! But I would never have allowed him to lead me out of the shindig, for just the mere finding out a guy's a PUA, totally disgusts me to no end, and I don't even bother to waste my time. Whatev the motives are, they are all not good enough for a classy, smart, pretty gal like me... or any of you for that matter. I have had to raise my standards(during the initial screening) sooo high that only a genuine man would do the work to get me. Because if you let'em think they can get you that far to even isolate you, then they just think "oh if I practice this a bit more I can get the girl..." I don't let them think anything other than "man, this PUA shit totally doesn't work and this gal is waay to smart for me"(which in turn also serves to raise their attraction for me sometimes) then on to the next target, or if they'r smart, they begin to realize that the only way to get a genuine classy gal is to do the work and be themselves. Part of my anti-PUA mission is to help these guys realize that this game is wrong, and that they will NEVER get the kind of "unattainable woman" they want this way if we just allow them to. We need to put a stop to this trend. Disease is on the rise and these PUA guys are doing far darker things than most of you realize. They are bragging about their conquests online and everything they were able to manipulate her into doing (anal, not using condoms, etc), and also posting pics and sometimes using camera phones to record the sex (so take them away! If they wanna have a good time, they'll do it!) and such to post online. They are using NLP (neuro-linguistic programming) to get gal to do things they normally wouldn't, that exceed their comfort level, and although they feel they can totally negate the woman's next day "buyer's remorse", most women who fall victim to this feel like shit the next day! Women were biologically created to be the "screeners" and men the "persuers", and so if we just don't bother to screen or just easliy allow them to bypass our instinctual screeneing processes, then they win. They feel they can "set the standards", but women are biologically engineered to be the ones who do this job (read the Myster Method: how to seduce beautiful women into bed, by Erik Von Markovik aka: "Mystery" to learn more about how these men have techniques designed to bypass woman's innate screening qualifications for mates). It's all a power play and sex is merely a perk for the ones who truely pride themselves on the game, which is based on unethical manipulative tactics. WE NEED TO SCREEN LIKE NEVER BEFORE... if they don't met our standards or try to cast a spell to bypass them, then we ditch them. A real Gentleman (or RG as we call them in the Order of the Mooncave), will naturally understand that pretty gals get hit on all the time and many guys are losers, so they will naturally understand that they need to prove how they are not like the loosers and thus deserving of our affection (and thus giving in to allow themselves to be screened is the 1st step). This sleezy Dave would've had his way w/you had he not fucked up, and you caught it. Many gals though, to your credit, would've still allowed his cheesy excuse to work and gone home w/him anyhow. If you wanna know what all we uncovered during our 6 month intensive investigation into the underworld of PUA lairs, go to myspace and find The Order of the Mooncave, and reclaim the goddess within! We aim to help educate women about this dangerous trend and the tactics/strategy they use, and to help women pick out a PUA and also how to properly screen effectively for a good genuine guy! Our methods work, because a PUA will never do the work when there's easier "targets" (as they refer to us..sick) out there. So if we get this movement to pick up speed (pardon the pun), then more and more women, will not fall victim to these lair liars (and yes almost ALL PUA's are liars!!!), then these guys will begin to see that no women will fall for this shit anymore and their game is cut off. But we ALL need to do our part. The only reason these guys are getting away with this is because we are allowing them to! We, as a generation of women, are not living by the same dating rules as our grandparents, and these men know this! They know we have not set high enough standards and they look for easy targets. Most women don't realize, as you mentioned, that most women WILL fall for this, and it only those of us courageous enough to say "yeah that would've worked on me too" are being honest with ourselves. It has only been recently that I feel confident in saying, "no loosers can get through my 'bitch sheild' anymore" (that's what they call our instinct to protect our feelings from being vulnerable when we 1st meet a man, since women are wired to be emotional and men physical, they try to evoke our emotions because if we decide to think logically about what we r doing with this guy, then we raise our sheid and instinctively protect ourselves). Come see our myspace page and read how they really talk about us. It's much different than all we hear on the tv show and books and sites, which is due to the fact that they wanna lure women into a false sense of security so we won't bother to take the time to investigate it further, but we need to!The things they say in their private databases and emails are appauling to say the least, and will make u sick to your stomach. Send us a friend request to read the blogs of all the "lay reports" we've collected. And yes they do write reports about their conquests for all the other PUA guys to see how they manipulated a gal into doing all manner of things. Could you be one of them? We of course hide the names if they are mentioned, and only give them out if we get a private message asking if someone's name is in any. We do this to protect the privacy and integrity of all women, because many of us know how it feels to be "bragged about" as a conquest. *We do not sell anything, and are not promoting any programs, or agenda other than ridding our society of this ugly trend and helping women to ban together to fight it, and to educate women about the PUA movement (unlike the PUA movement that has cult-like gurus that are making billions of $$ off these guys, and brainwashing them to believe if they don't use pickup they are afc's). It's sad that the men don't see they are being duped too!We ae also not "men haters'" as we know there are good guys out there. We will continue to add more info to our page too as we collect it form their private databases, and all sorts of helpful tips, and methods to evaluate your current standards for men, and how to fix any "weak areas" there too, so keep checking back with us! Myspace has become the new "trophy case" for "girl collections" that these guys show off, so think twice b4 approving that guy in your friend requests. We at the Mooncave, wanna commend you though for calling these guys out and helping to bring awareness to this trend and writing about it!! Kudos. But don't play with them until you know for sure you won't be taken in by their spell. We tell our goddesses-in-training the same thing. We also need volunteers who canhelp with the ongoing investigation, and legal advice for those who wanna file date rape charges (which is a new avenue we are recently looking into, due to the massive drugging incidents in our city recently) and people to help answer emails, share their stories, their standards, etc, for those gals wo want to get involved. Keep up the good work and we love ya!

Princess said...

...also forgot to commend you on being sooo honest about your story and sharing it w/us. It just shows how easily this stuff can work even when you know exactly what's gong on! I'll be posting similar blogs of som of mine and other gal's stories soon too, as many gals have had this happen. *They also try to get us to question our own saniity and intuition when we call them out and they deny it. then we think "oh I'm just being silly", but always trust your gut...you women's intuition. We all have it and so don't let them bypass that too by making us question our instincts! You are inspiring and brave to tell your story!!! Tahnks. =)

Kamal S. said...

This is a long comment, you can skip it by scrolling down, but in doing so you will do yourself a disservice. I shall say a few things, pointing out a bit of rank hypocricy, and next pointing out how our dating culture, and not just "PUA tactics", show how poisoned and inauthentic we are, as a culture.

1. Does anyone bother reading Shakespeare or Ovid anymore? 1001 Arabian Nights, or even the Kama Sutra? Turn off Hulu, stop being mediocre, and go a book or something.

For thousands of years Women and Men both have responded erotically to certain things. Both men and women respond to the mutual seduction of each other.

Little gambits and moves have been known for generations, for both men and women on seducing each other. Yes, here is some artifice, in a woman's puppy dog eyes, or her flattery, or her displaying a bit of cleavage or legs. We have an old phrase.

"Feminine Wiles"

"Wiles" defined in a good dictionary has the connotation of devious stratagem.
Modern "PUA game" shite is equivalent to the cute artificial gambits published in Cosmo magazine, or traded back and forth between girls in high school. Such arts that many women grow up learning as "feminine wiles”.

Both CAB be equally vapid, and hollow. But both can also be flattering and artful. If DONE WELL, Women or Men using certain wiles to seduce each other is being flattering and artful.

For nothing is more flattering than being desired. There is some truth that finding and keeping love is an art, to be cultivated and practiced. So too in any interpersonal connection (friendship, business networking, parenting).

Some things come naturally to a few people, for others, interpersonal skills have to be cultivated.

Our culture’s expectation that aught having to do with love must be spontaneous is simply cultural brainwashing. Everywhere worldwide people know that there is a certain dance, of sorts, between a man and woman.

It starts with the meeting of eyes, and a certain look.

However a lot of modern male "pick-up artistry" and female "game" alike is not only flagrantly artificial, but obnoxious. But this is because WE are artificial and obnoxious.

I lived around 4 sisters, a mother, and at times a very controlling grandmother. As an adult I have more female friends than male, some are lesbians, and all tell me little secrets. What they do not tell, I observe, so trust me...

Wiles are by definition manipulative tactics, I know quite a bit about female wiles.

And many work on me; they generate a response. In spite of my being conscious of them.

In fact, when girls I've dated have employed them, seductively, on me, I often found it to be cute. Calling them out on it could be rude, now wouldn't it?

Why? Because the fact if a woman who desires me tries to use her wiles on me, seductively, it is flattering. It means she desires me.

How is that insulting? To be desired.

Now using manipulative tactics to get something from me is another matter, but seduction is something mutually enjoyable.

I have met a few girls who grow up not consciously learning such wiles, but all but a very few women I've met can employ them well, on at least a barely liminal level.

In more civilized cultures, males too have often for hundreds of years culturally cultivated similar male wiles. Yes, it is artifice, but so is all civilization.

In healthy, intact and whole cultures the game of courtship is enjoyed for what it is, a game, and a beautiful one.

Kamal S. said...

So now… where does that leave us?

Well, here is a real truth of "Cocks and Dolls"

That we are all damaged, wounded, and we are seeking love. Friendship love, erotic love, romantic love.

We all have desires, and urges, and yearnings. One gender's yearnings and needs are not more important than the other's. Not more valid, and not more sincere.

Has it dawned on anyone commenting here that America’s (and England’s) dating scene is equally absurd on both female and male sides?

That a real lack of authenticity exists among women and men alike; Be they players, or totally unaware of game?

That pop culture and gender war politics have warped both women and men into vacuous, needy, and pathetic people?

That, oh Sara, chest beating and in your face triumphalism like "we are more sexual anyways, males just work for us. Yah, on your knees...in and out" is as disgusting, immature, and puerile, and possibly more so, as some misogynistic female hating tripe? (and both can betray a mind and soul that’s either wounded and sad, or as hollow and vapid as a box)

That anyone thinking such thoughts, male or female, may be sick, deeply wounded, immature, and un-whole as a person?

And inaccurate. For anyone with a bit of exposure, or who has had a real, mature, and mutually engaging relationship.

I wonder how many mature, successful, fulfilling, relationships you have had in your life Sara..

Both the fact that so many men are so desperate for female love and attention that they sit around and memorize routines and gambits and the like;

And the fact that, honestly, many women seem to "fall for" such gambits (and often the more intelligent they are, the more they fall for it), to the point of needing to trade notes on how to recognize player moves, does not ALL of this illustrate how sad, sorry, and pathetic, both women and men alike have become in our generation?

And does this not speak volumes about our mutual incapacity to love,

our mutual incapacity to connect,

our mutual incapacity to be whole and loving human beings, instead of mutually needy, mutually co-dependent, and mutually destructive?

Don't blame the player, blame the entire stupid game.

Or better, work together mutually to create a better game. Will this happen? Not on my life. But for those few women and men out there who truly, truly, want more authenticity in their relationships.

It starts with being more authentic yourself. and ruthlessly cultivating authenticity in your own life.
Ruthlessly cultivating meaning.

and learning the arts of being a civilized person interacting with others. The level at which art becomes spontaneous, where we learn not to be boorish, but to cultivate fellowship, and friendship - both platonic and erotic.

It all starts with you.

I wonder how many out there reading this have the courage to truly go out and try to cultivate meaningful romantic and erotic relationships?

And better, to try to cultivate their own lives of meaning, intelligence, and authenticity?

Not many.

Because it is easier to criticize than to work on ourselves.

A vice that women and men share, in spades.

MarkyMark said...

What bothers me is all the potential for people to act in a deceitful, disrespectful, and harmful way using these strategies. I can see a lot of potential for PUAs to abuse their power.

Ah, but it's all right to abuse the power YOU have as woman, right? Manipulation, deceit, and trickery are all right as long as YOU are the one doing them, isn't it? Nah, what you don't like Little Missy is being beat at your own game, and that's what pisses you off about PUAs.

BTW, I'm not a PUA, nor do I have aspirations to be one. I practice such masculine, patriarchally oppressive things such as honor, decency, integrity, etc.; IOW, I treat others the way I wish to be treated-with dignity & respect. Unfortunately, that's a liability with the modern woman, so I'm not successful with the ladies.

I'm out of here. I've wasted enough time responding to this.

jef said...

Hey Dolly,

I love how you were honest about your feelings in your story.

But people who get into this Game stuff are not (as first commenter William says) "motivated by Power". Very very few pickup artists actually are these power hungry crazy maniacs. Take it from a woman's standpoint: how on earth would this stuff work on most women if the guy was constantly thinking "we're gonna get em. we're gonna fuck em, and then leave. HAHAHAHA!!!"

the general VIBE coming from a guy who thinks this way would ruin his game.

Here is how most AFCs think. "I want love. I just want a girlfriend who is pretty and has a personality that fits me." Again, very few guys who get into PUA stuff are out there for predatorial reasons or to satisfy their manipulative needs.

Now here's why most people who pick up The Game will get an immediate feeling that guys who do this are manipulative and bad people. The reason is because the people at the very top of this industry KNOW so much about the human psyche its scary. From what I know, I can explain why this whole thing is viewed as manipulative. The pickup businessmen know that humans have a natural tendency to want the "magic pill" to their problems. So for their target consumers (needy men), you will see everywhere the general message, "Guys, buy from me and get instantly successful with women. All those problems, they'll go away. like magic." and THATS why the pickup world has so many "routines" "techniques" for men to "apply". People do not go into the seduction community manipulative, but those who follow Mystery Method game and all that "quick easy line memorize and apply" stuff generally are manipulative. But the truth is, the people using this stuff rarely are actually successful. The truth is, there is no shortcut to find love, and definitely learning a few lines will not get you there.

Most (successful) men involved in pickup have this mentality: "I am so happy with my life right now, that I would actually have to think twice before getting into a relationship with a girl, because it would only be worth it if we supplemented each other." Do you see how this is almost opposite of the manipulative mentality generally labeled on PUA? There are no tricks, no neediness to try to get the girl. The guys who are ACTUALLY good at Game are the ones who act the most natural. In the very end, The Game is a life transforming process to become natural and happy with your own life. Women naturally gravitate to that. The reason why The Game is controversial is because the industry relies on sex as a motivation for guys to get sucked in.

I guess what I'm really trying to say, is that the Seduction Community is not bad when you get really deep into it. Yes, there is a trial phase where most men turn into robotic manipulative hazards. Sorry, but no one would join a community that said face-value "long ass journey to become a naturally great guy... buy my seminar videos and do what I tell you: go through years of trial and error until you finally become attractive"; sex and magic pills are used to lure guys who need the most help. (ironically, the way to become attractive is to be so outcome independent that you aren't even trying to portray yourself as attractive; you just are) After doing this for a while, a deep identity level change occurs, changing these needy guys into natural men who women are looking for. What really changed everything for me was watching Tyler Durden's "Blueprint Decoded" seminars. Most people think he's an asshole because of The Game, but if you watch just the first video of the Blueprint Decoded you will quickly realize what I mean about the TRUE purpose of pickup.

Jef

... said...

'While in the middle of talking to the industry guy and Polly, PUA Dave came back around, took my arm, and said, "we're leaving now."'

You got suckered, this is one of the more tactful approaches to leaving with a girl. Offering an 'exotic escape' from an otherwise normal conversation.

If you're going to help girls defend better, best teach them the moral - avoid the game altogether (ditch the posers at first doubt or unbelief, and the group that suckers them). 'The game' is DEFINED to make males the winner. It would be folly to say otherwise.

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